A Good Beer Blog

-------

Have you read The Unbearable Nonsense of Craft Beer - A Rant in Nine Acts by Alan and Max yet? It's out on Kindle as well as Lulu.

Maureen Ogle said this about the book: "... immensely readable, sometimes slightly surreal rumination on beer in general and craft beer in particular. Funny, witty, but most important: Smart. The beer geeks will likely get all cranky about it, but Alan and Max are the masters of cranky..."

Ron Pattinson said: "I'm in a rather odd situation. Because I appear in the book. A fictional version of me. It's a weird feeling."


Comments

Comments are locked. No additional comments may be posted.

Stan Hieronymus -

There is much to be said for letting Ron do the heavy lifting.

Meanwhile you might look at Martyn's post today, which provide more detail about three-threads and porter (circa early 18th century).

Alan -

Good call. I should have mentioned that post of Martyn's as well.<p> Interestingly, I have checked out Hornsey at at page 352 to 355 there is a very detailed account of the brewing in the estate of Henry VIII's Secretary of State from 1540 to 1545. The brewing was done on site, as might have been regularly the case - we can think of Traquair House as relates to scale. Every two weeks in 1548 between 280 and 360 gallons was brewed. The property had a hop garden. But in October 1552 there was a crisis because "the brewer went sick or because the supply of malt ran out." For present purposes, this is telling as there were no or little reserves in store...even though he made the same "March ale" - which by its name logically would be an annual product and either produced i October to be consumed in March or available in storage in October. In neither case was it a back-up for the regular demand of beer.<p>On the pages 353-54, Hornsey cites Harrison's same 1577 book and quote that Martyn references but seems to describe him as a brewer, though no doubt being a parson and a brewer are not exclusive. The quote is produced in more length:<blockquote class="smalltext">Beer drunk at noblemen's tables was usually a year old, or even to years old, less wealthy households made do with drink which was not less than a month in age.</blockquote>Indeed, a 1588 text by someone with the admirable name of Tabernaemontanus mentioned by Hornsey at page 358 contains this interesting passage:<blockquote class="smalltext">This art of making beer taste better which our beer brewers seem to have learned from the Flemings and the Netherlanders seems still to be carried on, as also the strengthening of beer with laurel, ivy or Dutch myrtle so that it stays well preserved and does not rapidly deteriorate <b>or go sour</b>.</blockquote>This would seem to indicate that beer going sour is not a quality that 16th century drinkers would universally embrace.

Alan -

Note also in the 1736 edition of London and Country Brewer at page 117, the warning not to age beers overly long lest they go sour with roughly a nine month storage of strong beer recommended.

Bill Weye -

Sour ales, right now are my favorite beers. I don't have much to contribute (I can't help you trace the history of sour beer back to the cave men) other than to say, as I'm on the 160 beer program at the Moan and Dove in Amherst, MA, I have tasted a lot of good beer. Sour ale, and in particular Duchess de Bourgogne, is some of the most interesting beer I've had. The grip on your mouth is truly something to experience. Today I had another sour ale, Rodenbach, that was mellower than the Duchess, but satisfying nonetheless. You can follow my amateurish tasting notes on my blog.

Thanks for this great resource.

Ron Pattinson -

It's difficult to know the precise difference between "stale" (=good) and "sour" (=bad) in old texts.

While it's evident that aged Porter had some sourness, there's disagreemnt as to whether this came principally from lactic acid or acetic acid. About the only hard evidence I've seen on acidity in beer is to be found in "American Handy Book of Brewing, Malting and Auxiliary Trades", by Wahl & Henius, Chicago 1902:

http://www.europeanbeerguide.net/beerale.htm#wahlheni

On page 825 there are chemical analyses of various Stouts. Barclay Perkins Double Brown Stout is top with a lactic acid content of 0.46. The Dublin Stouts listed have about half that. Page 830 has details of two Lambics and one Faro. Their lactic acid content is 1.06 and 1.11 for the lambic, 0.90 for the Faro.

Alan -

Ron: while I have a sense of it, do you know what would be current comparators, beery or otherwise? Is there anything with lactic acid that is commonly consumed now? What are the characteristics?

Bill: I have learned much through this process and sometimes, when drinking a new beer, think "not enough tang." If I end up brewing at any level myself, these styles are going to be on the slate.

Ron Pattinson -

I don't have any modern analyses to compare these with. All I can say is that the lagers in the Wahl & Henius tables have around 0.10 lactic acid content.

Alan -

I was thinking more generally, Ron, like this information on the relative perception of tartness caused by lactic acid.

Alan -

Here is an interesting, if wikiality based, description of various taste issues caused by lactic acid bacteria but no description of perception based on % content.<p>And note this reference to gueuze having a PH of 3.5 (as opposed to a measurement in terms of percentage) as well as the factor of the gobbiness of the drinker which needs considering.

Matthew Holderfield -

Lactic acid is the sour tang plain in yogurt. It's a fairly straight forward sour tartness.

Acetic acid is vinegar.

They're produced by different bacteria growing in the beer. So, by mixing the amount and type of organisms in the beer will make the flavor more or less sour or vinegar tasting. That's why beers like Duchesse taste more like vinegar than something like Petrus oud brun.

It's not necessarily the age of a beer that makes it sour, but a lot of these sour beers will taste a lot better the older they get, and in some cases the older they are the more sour they get. But, if they don't have the bacteria or some sour producing organism, then they won't turn sour.

Alan -

Excellent work, Matthew. Now, can I get my hands on a comparative yoghurt acidity chart?

Matthew Holderfield -

oops... that's "Lactic acid is the sour tang in plain yogurt."

sorry for the mistype.

Why exactly do you want some way to quantify the acidity? Are you looking for some standard like ISUs? ... International Sourness Units :-P

I don't think there's such a thing. Though, as you stated, acidity is measured in pH, but if you want to distinguish between acids then you'll have to talk in parts per million or % like Ron was saying.

Alan -

There must be such a thing! Between Ron's records, taste perception studies and a decent cross-edibles ISU chart, we should be able to determine what people really were comfortable with consuming.

Ron Pattinson -

Alan, fun isn't it looking at old records. Working out what the hell they isn't easy.

All perceived flavours in beer are difficult to quantify. Even things like IBUa are not absolute. Analyses of the Trappists demonstrated that to me. The one with the most IBUs wasn't the one that tasted the bitterest. (Bitterest tasting - Orval; most IBUs - Westvleteren 12). For most beers only lactic acid and not acetic acid is given.

What you can see is that some beers - the lambics - have double the lactic acid content of anything else. I think that tells us something.

Good discussion.

The perceived sourness to the drinker could be worked out (I suppose) if you knew the OG, FG, lactic acid and acetic acid content. A brewing chemist must be able to work it out. But not me.

Kevin Donohue -

Who was the first brewer to come out with the sour beers?